Some Might Say This Is Controversial…..

This might be controversial but I’m going to say it….

Today I had a great conversation on Twitter with a few people regarding Catholicism and some not so great. I didn’t / don’t understand why some (not all) believe Jesus is more present when you call on his mother Mother.  Let me just state I don’t believe this in the slightest I believe Jesus is always there as is God and the Holy Spirit you don’t need to ask his mum for him to come visit you…. I can just hear the keyboard warriors bashing the brains out of there word generators now so before you go all angry on me let me state my reasons. 

1.   Jesus is always with us no matter where we go as is God and the Holy spirit.  The Bible teaches this and that God is omnipresent,  omnipotent as is the trinity.

2. Jesus said,

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”  John 14:6

I don’t believe we need anyone else but Jesus, we don’t need Mary,  or any other saint,  priest or minister to intercede for us with God.  For this was the purpose of the cross Jesus died so we could be reconciled with God and have a relationship with him as he intercedes for us with God.  He’s our Redeemer our Saviour.  When Jesus died the curtains  fell in the temple and tore in 2.  This symbolised the need for us to ask high priests to pray for our forgiveness we no more,  meaning we only need to confess to God in Jesus name and he is just to forgive us our sins.  In fact Jesus taught us how to pray that’s where the Lords prayer comes from, he never mentioned Mary.

3. Why do priests see it their job to tell people when they are forgiven? With all due respect the death of Christ was the the price  for our sins,  if we have a relationship with Jesus and he is in our hearts and we humbly and sincerely repent we forgiven through God’s grace,  no one else can forgive  you.

4. Praying to Mary seems to me like idolatry (unless this can be explained to me in any other terms than it already has been)  I will continue to feel this way as yes Mary was blessed to bear the son of God and Jesus surely loved his mother but he never told us to pray to Mary so he would be even more present – Jesus said,

For where two or three gather in MY name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20

He never mentioned his mother, he said His name. Having images of Mary seems to me that she is worshipped which is idolatry. 

5. Believing in purgatory to me seems that you believe God can’t make up his mind about his final judgement thus contradicting all he teaches within the Bible about God being almighty,  all knowing and that grace does not apply because by going to purgatory it means you can work your way to heaven which no one can go to Heaven by works, it’s by the gift of grace we go as we are sinful humans who can never deserve what Jesus did for us upon that cross.

6.   The worshipping and praising of saints and praying to them for healing amongst other things is again undermining the power of God.  Why would we pray to other people/things? 

I didn’t write this to be judgemental or argumentative unfortunately the hate I have received on Twitter is nuts and it’s hard to explain in 140 characters. So this is my reasons for what I believe. 

I must say if you are a Christian and you have Jesus in your life then we are all a member of the body of Christ and we should be brothers and sisters in faith.  Too many denominations these days worshipping the same God and knowing Jesus as their Saviour but argue over trivial matters. We worship the same God so let’s do what Jesus wants us to do and love each other united together in Christ.

Grow with God your own personal relationship and experience it.  Never be influenced by anyone else. Follow the  Bible for your answers,  believe  in Jesus,  pray to God and let your light shine.  If it contradicts scripture it’s not of God.

GOD BLESS
Stephen

PS- no keyboards were harmed in the making of this post.

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8 Responses to Some Might Say This Is Controversial…..

  1. Disciple says:

    Hi, again. It’s me, @disciple96 from Twitter. 🙂

    (Do you prefer to be called Steve or Stephen? I called you Steve on Twitter because of your handle. I’m one of the wacky Catholics you conversed with on Twitter earlier today. Hope I’m in the good group and not one of the baddies. 😉 I had a really great time talking with you. Our conversation called to my mind so many things, memories of discovery–and that discovery is an ongoing process just like my learning to be a disciple. That’s one of the reasons I chose Disciple as my handle online: to constantly remind me of what I am trying to do. My feeble mind and weak will need all the help they can get, you know. 😉 Another reason is in honor of my Grandmother. She was one of the finest Christian people I have ever known, as saintly as they come, a true disciple of Jesus. I wish I were more like her by nature but I am trying to become more like her, and like our Lord, fail though I do and many times a day.)

    I read your post and I’d really like to be able to respond to what you’ve written, in the spirit of our conversation on Twitter, one disciple of Christ talking with another, not me talking at you and certainly not fussing or pouncing or any of that. But I would like the opportunity to address each of the statements about what Catholicism teaches and how we practice or live our faith and offer as much insight and light as I am able. Would that be agreeable to you? I won’t even attempt it unless you give me permission. I doubt that I could do justice to the attempt in a brief post (and not this late at night). And not on Twitter! LOL! It’d have to be here or somewhere else where I can wax poetic and eloquent and at least have some elbow room. 😉

    So, what do you say? Shall we try this? I could just take one thing at a time and write about it and then you could write back and then we could move on to the next thing when we were ready. That way it would be relaxed and enjoyable (I certainly hope!) and we’d both get more out of the endeavor. 🙂 Or you can ask me questions, one at a time. In whatever way you would like to proceed, if you would like to. I’m open to suggestions. 🙂

    Thank you again for talking with me today and I look forward to many more talks with you.

    Your sister in Christ,
    Disciple
    @disciple96
    catholicview.wordpress.com

    • Hi

      No you were one of the kind ones and of course by all means I would love to let you explain etc my points and have an actual conversation instead of the abuse I received last night. Thank you for taking the time to reply and I look forward to your responses. Its funny my grandmother was the same the most loving faithful woman you could ever meet. Grandmothers have a habit of being the stronghold in your life. She sadly passed away from cancer in November and I miss her so much but she left me a letter encouraging me to share with others and I’ll always remember that and stand up for my faith. A wise man once said the pathway to greatness is through adversity!

      So please respond and I look forward to reading your posts.

      God Bless Sister!

      Stephen Steve Stevie whatever y’all wana call me feel free

      • Disciple says:

        I’d hoped to get started on our new conversation by now. Plans, nothing like ’em. Ah, well… Hopefully I will be able to devote a good block of time tomorrow to the beginning of our first exchange. I do so much desire to undo any damage that others seem to have done in whatever other conversations you have had. I certainly don’t want to add to your troubles! 😉 I’m hoping to read over your post again tomorrow & then begin at the beginning. I don’t know what time tomorrow. Hopefully my dogs will stay in the yard this time & out of the mud. Long story, don’t ask. Oy! 😉

        Talk to you soon! God bless you, Stephen, Steve, Stevie. 😉
        Disciple

  2. jbrahi says:

    If I could just help explain Catholic beliefs (as far as I understand them)
    1. We agree that God is always with us, and omnipresent.
    2. We agree also that we only need Jesus’ intercession. However, Christians have always interceded for each other, and always asked each other for intercession. Because we believe that the saints are still alive in Christ, they are still available to pray with us & for us. I disagree with your interpretation of the curtain splitting (I say why in 3). Of course Jesus didn’t mention Mary, but do you believe that none of the disciples talked to her, or asked for her prayers, when she was at the foot of the cross, or went home with John, or prayed with them in the upper room before Pentecost?
    3. John 20:23- “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Matthew 18:18- “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Only God forgives sins, yet He was pleased to give this authority to His apostles, and their successors.
    4. Praying to Mary and the saints, is just talking with people. People who have died and gone to heaven, but still just talking. I’ve never been told that praying to Mary makes Jesus “more” present (what does that even mean?). When we pray with the saints, we are gathering in prayer in Jesus’ name. Images of Mary are no different to images of dead relatives: they are not alive, and have no power, but call to mind the one presented to us. Or even think of calling family on Skype: you’re actually looking at a computer, but it presents your family to you.
    5. Once you’re in purgatory, it’s already decided: you’re on a one way path to heaven that you can’t get off. It isn’t working your way into heaven, it’s being made pure, because nothing impure can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). We believe that 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is referring to this.
    6. It doesn’t undermine God’s power, because the saints are simply interceding for us, to God. It is again like praying with your local (living) church. We don’t pray together so that we’re loud and annoying enough for God to hear us, but because He is pleased by it, and established the Church so that we may come before Him together.
    I hope this helps.

    God bless you

  3. Disciple says:

    Greetings again, Steve! I’ll be running errands a while today, then plan to start writing the first reply this afternoon/evening after I prepare myself a little, want to pray first. (That’s a good idea for both of us so that we enter into this with the proper Spirit.) I’ll be thinking about our exchange all the while, as I’ve done since we met in Twitterland. 😉

    One thought that keeps presenting itself to me is for us to really realize that the bond we share as baptized Christians is real. We are really members of the Body of Christ, branches grafted onto Christ the Vine. This is not merely a figure of speech or metaphor. We are really made one in Him Who is One with God the Father & God the Holy Spirit. Doesn’t make us gods but look at what it does make us: brothers & sisters with Christ, the Son of God, the Word Made Flesh! How much of the time do we forget how shocking this really is? The idea so thoroughly shocked the people of the time when Christ walked the earth that most could not accept it. Most do not accept it now.

    Thinking about this should help us enter into reflecting on what we’re about here without letting us forget how momentous & sublime the teachings of Christ are. We’re not bouncing concepts around but pondering what He did, what He handed on to us, what He offers us. And what Christianity is will always be bigger, vaster, and more glorious than anything you or I can ever say about it.

    Anything I say will always leave so much out but I will do my best. Thank you for letting me try.
    Disciple

  4. Disciple says:

    From Born Again Blogger’s original post:

    “Today I had a great conversation on Twitter with a few people regarding Catholicism and some not so great. I didn’t / don’t understand why some (not all) believe Jesus is more present when you call on his mother Mother. Let me just state I don’t believe this in the slightest I believe Jesus is always there as is God and the Holy Spirit you don’t need to ask his mum for him to come visit you.”

    My reply:

    I’m sorry some people were less than courteous to you on Twitter and I’m happy that I was not one of those people. 🙂 I enjoy conversing on many topics in general and about Christianity in particular.

    I’m not familiar with the idea of anyone thinking Jesus is more present when His Mother is called upon. I went through the thread(s) on Twitter and I found one person making a statement somewhat similar and that was not very clear; my own thinking is that he did not exactly mean that Jesus was ever made more present by His Mother but I’m not sure what he did mean, either. I have never heard anything quite like that in all the years I’ve been a Catholic or studied the faith and that’s 17 years as a practicing Catholic and two years prior to that when I had only just begun discovering the Church and became fascinated with what I found. 🙂 Catholicism is vast, to be sure, and I haven’t heard of everything, but I am saying I have never heard or even thought such a thing. I really do think it’s an odd idea and I don’t like it any more than you do. It doesn’t even make sense. How could Mary make Jesus more present? Either He is or He isn’t.

    Now what Mary did do was say Yes to the angel of the Lord when he brought the message to her that she was chosen to be the Mother of the Son of God. That was a pretty big part to play in salvation history and one that gets downplayed a lot. Her Motherhood of Jesus is a very important role. But does she make Him more present to us? I don’t see how she could. In the Gospel of John, Chapter 2, Mary is at a wedding feast at Cana and the Gospel says that “Jesus and His disciples were also invited to the wedding.” Notice, it does not say that Jesus is there and that Mary is also there with Him. Does this mean that she is more important than Jesus? By no means. But it goes some way toward dispelling the notion that she is unimportant to the people in New Testament times or in the events being described in the stories. Indeed, the idea of Mary’s unimportance is foreign to the text, as foreign as it was to the early Christians themselves. (See the writings of the early Christians. More on this as time goes on.)

    Back to Cana. What Mary did do was to display her motherly care for others when she took it upon herself to notice that the wine was running short and mention it to her Son. She didn’t have to notice, she didn’t have to mention it. But she did. Why? Because she cared and because she was a good Jewish mother. 😉 This is a case of intercession: Mary interceded for the couple (the host who would be embarrassed, the stewards who were the ones actually aware of the situation, the guests who would be without wine, all of them) with her Son. Jesus acts like He doesn’t want to manifest His Divinity by performing a miracle yet. But Mary just turns to the wine stewards and says, “Do whatever He tells you.” She knows her Son and she knows He will take care of the problem, she takes it for granted that He will act, especially since she has asked Him to, because she knows He loves His mother. So Jesus performs His first miracle (or the first miracle we have recorded for us) after His mother intercedes with Him. The Church has always found this to be significant. The fact that John starts this story with the words “On the third day” also tells us something significant is about to take place. This whole account is important. He is telling us to sit up and take note.

    So there is something to see here, something to ponder. And I never saw it until someone pointed it out to me. Until the Church pointed it out to me. It’s one of the many parts of the Bible that I simply read and passed right over without noticing until the Church said, “Whoa, read that again, there is something to see here that you missed.”

    Now am I saying, or is the Church saying, that you need to ask Mary if you want Jesus to come visit you? Nope. I can’t imagine anyone ever saying such a thing. Just as I don’t need to ask you to pray for me and you don’t need to ask me to pray for you because we can both pray to God directly and even He knows what we need before we speak. But yet I do ask people to pray for me and other people ask me to pray for them. Why? Do we need to? If we don’t need to, then why do it? Because it is not only about need but about desire. Not only about how something needs to be done but how it can be done. God could do all He wants done without anyone’s help. But He allows us to help anyway. He permits us to participate in His Work because He loves us. He is a good Father and He loves His children and He desires us to help Him do things that He could do very well without us. (Ever let a child help you do anything? Did you need his help? Nope. Did you let him help anyway? Yes, if you are a kind and loving person. And if you wanted to help him learn and grow as person, too.)

    Jesus, as the Son of God, did not need anyone to tell Him about the wine. But He permitted His mother to intercede for others at the wedding feast and He permits us to intercede for each other now. Not because He needs it to be that way but because it pleases Him to do so and because it helps us to grow in love to be more like Him. Which is what we’re about, you know, walking in this Way, following in the footsteps of our Lord. Taking His yoke upon us and learning to imitate Him, submitting to His discipline and living as disciples. And who was the first disciple? Not Andrew or Peter. His first disciple was His mother who had carried Him in her womb for nine months and cared for Him as an infant and toddler and teenager. She was the disciple who never abandoned Him, no matter what happened. Could she tell us a thing or two about her Son? I should think so! Things no other disciple could ever have known. And all with a mother’s tender love, memories carried within a loving mother’s heart.

    We could go on and on, plumbing the spiritual depths of this one simple section of Scripture. But I think this is enough to show that even a small unassuming portion of the Gospel opens out upon vistas that we might not have expected. I know I did not expect it all those years ago. And the Scriptures still stun and amaze me all these years later. There is always something more to be seen, more of God’s Truth to be known. Thanks be to God!

  5. Disciple says:

    Hi, Steve. Wanted to check in with you. I’ll wait for a reply from you before continuing to write. That is, if you still want me to. 😉

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